Comments about this vehicle

Author	Message
chicomarx ◊ 2018-10-27 02:32
johnfromstaffs ◊ 2018-10-27 09:16	E494C 5cwt van. October 1948 to July 1954. Some export versions of the van were fitted with the 10hp engine, designation E4930C/B. -- Last edit: 2018-10-27 09:25:21
dsl ◊ 2018-10-27 13:23	Was there any NL assembly in Antwerp??
johnfromstaffs ◊ 2018-10-27 14:26	No. 5cwt vans..... 1949 Qty 201 1950 Qty 1551 1951 Qty 708 1952 Qty 210 1953 Qty 300 1954 Qty 130 plus 120 “100E” (300E?) All KD kits from Dagenham, and Amsterdam (car assembly 1933 to 1978) rather than Antwerp according to Dave Turner’s book so the “built in” flag is incorrect. Also 1330 10cwt plus 110 chassis assembled. “Built” is a rather loose and floppy term, my experience of the motor industry suggests that “fabricated” and “assembled” used as appropriate are more accurate, but I suppose this doesn’t suit the database constraints. -- Last edit: 2018-10-27 14:55:16
chicomarx ◊ 2018-10-27 15:50	'Built' could be replaced by assembly/assemblage I guess... A second field will be more difficult. @antp? Make it so.
antp ◊ 2018-10-28 10:14	Indeed "assembled" is probably more relevant and precise, as for CKD we use the country where it is assembled, not where parts are produced (if I remember correctly). I'll change the label if no-one objects.
dsl ◊ 2018-10-28 11:56	Why not cover both so "Built/assembled in"?? The interest is more that something was done in a secondary country, not having a definition for the degree of what was done locally. And if we follow that through, it probably means we can resolve lots of anomalies such as Seat-built Fiat clones switching to Origin I etc.
johnfromstaffs ◊ 2018-10-28 13:32	Seems fine to me. We have a model origin label to cover design and fabrication where necessary and assembled in to cover the place where the kits were thrown together. I still do not like the word “built” in this context. It means different things to different people.
Weasel1984 ◊ 2018-10-28 15:29	johnfromstaffs wrote ... We have a model origin label to cover design and fabrication where necessary and assembled in to cover the place where the kits were thrown together. OK, but for sure you know better than me, that production in, let's say, "foreign plant" not always means only assembly from kits. There are cars "completly"* made in country Z by company from country Y. New name of the "built in" field (still) won't distinguish such cases and may suggests that the whole "foreign production" is like CKD/SKD assembly. _ *Of course rarely in 100% "completly", but still it is incomparably much more advanced thing with whole surrounding industry, than assembly from imported kits. -- Last edit: 2018-10-28 16:10:22
johnfromstaffs ◊ 2018-10-28 17:09	^ In that case built/assembled would work. Much as I dislike built, which I tend to think of as starting from ground zero like when building a house, for the sake of brevity, let’s use it. -- Last edit: 2018-10-28 17:13:52
antp ◊ 2018-10-28 20:02	Why is "built" needed in addition to "assembled"? Isn't it implied anyway? Which case would require "built" instead of "assembled"?
dsl ◊ 2018-10-28 21:50	antp wrote Which case would require "built" instead of "assembled"? Assembled means some/all of the bits are imported from the original country (which covers a wide range of different processes and degrees of localness). In some cases the car arrived pretty well complete in terms of components, but some bits were only attached on arrival or might use local add-ons such as tyres, air-con, seats, radios and so on; sometimes the local plant would create additional sporty/luxury versions as happened with some Ladas/Moskvitches etc in UK. Other examples had local rules that a defined %age of value had to be provided locally so for instance a 75% complete car would arrive and get local tyres, lights, suspension, glass, maybe engine in low-octane fuel countries, extra rust-proofing, etc. Made (to me at least) means all (or nearly all) the bits are manufactured in the second country. So a complete factory - machine tools, paint shop and everything. Paykan Hunters a good example, but Coventry still had a role by developing all the specifications/templates for all the updates and different versions. So when the Paykan got new lights, they were from the Chrysler Alpine and Ryton supplied the tooling (I think this was after the European Alpine facelift, when it was no longer needed in UK or F). Paykan also did some 2-door Avengers, starting soon after UK stopped making them, so I assume all the tooling was shipped over to Iran. And when later Paykans got Peugeot engines, Coventry had engineered the conversion. Another example was Ryton-built Alpines/Horizons/309/405/306 etc - everything made in Coventry and nothing imported - a completely parallel process to the French activities. I don't know the detail of how Seat made Fiats, but I guess they didn't import any Italian bits. Many South American productions of European stuff would be complete manufacture locally - not economic to supply things from home country. Ditto UK stuff in eg Australia, Japanese brands in UK etc etc. So a huge range of circumstances and permutations, not all of which would have been constant - eg lots of Peugeots made in Africa long after French assembly stopped, so may have received discarded French tooling after a few years. So for us, the most useful thing we can do is keep the definition as wide as possible to capture the best range of activities.
johnfromstaffs ◊ 2018-10-29 08:42	I can tell you for certain, having watched it in process, that Paykan Hunter back axle cases were made by GKN/Sankey. Where they went to have the geary bits put in I cannot say. On somewhat shakier ground, looking at the subject vehicle, it seems to me unlikely that Ford Australia would go to the expense of setting up the casting/forging plant necessary to manufacture from scratch engines and transmissions at the relatively low kind of volumes they built. We do know, however that there were Australian only models of the upright Anglia. The ways of the motor industry always stretch belief. The ways of IMCDB always cause some head scratching, especially the thought necessary to meet the challenge of providing accurate but unambiguous information using the fewest possible words. jfs fails again!
chicomarx ◊ 2018-10-30 04:57	Getting mired in details. For a general label one word would be best, not both with a "/"...
atom ◊ 2018-10-30 07:19	Does the word 'processed' cover everything from CKDs to manfactured to bodied (funeral cars etc.) vehicles?
chicomarx ◊ 2018-10-30 19:12	Processed meat... It does cover everything, atom. Valmet SAABs were manufactured with Swedish parts, Finnish labour, Valéo headlights from France, Bosch parts from Belgium... they call it an 'assembly line'. OEM branded parts could be sourced anywhere. 'Assembled' seems fine.
atom ◊ 2018-10-30 19:31	I'm not talking about only assembly lines. I'm not a fan of the word though, I'm just throwing out ideas for a word that fits everything we use this field for right now. 'Assembled' is probably the best contestant even though it doesn't cover some stuff that we use this field for. Is the living compartment of a motor home fitted on a naked chassis 'assembled'? -Maybe. Is a naked truck chassis fitted with a local built cab 'assembled'? -Maybe but it's a bit of a stretch. Is a wagon or sedan that is cut up to have a special body built and merged in with the original shape of the body to make a funeral car or ambulance 'assembled'? -I don't think so.
antp ◊ 2018-10-30 19:38	In the end, which one is the most accurate for most of the cases? Built or Assembled? It does not have to cover everything, we can always have some special borderline cases.
johnfromstaffs ◊ 2018-10-31 15:55	Having initiated this discussion I shall now add my vote for “assembled” in the possibly vain hope that this shall be the end of it. Or the beginning of the end, or even the end of the beginning. - W S Churchill, approximately. -- Last edit: 2018-10-31 15:58:52
chicomarx ◊ 2018-11-02 01:19	atom wrote it doesn't cover some stuff that we use this field for. Well it's true that assembled has a narrower definition and no more votes in favour of a change... don't be despondent @johnfromstaffs but I think the referendum has failed.
johnfromstaffs ◊ 2018-11-02 08:58	Bloodied but unbowed I shall move on unto the next skirmish.

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1949 Fordson 5cwt Van [E494C]

1949 Fordson 5cwt Van [E494C] in De Aanslag, Movie, 1986

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