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Author	Message
zodiac ◊ 2023-04-10 12:21	I believe it's a Vauxhall Victor [FB], but I'm not entirely sure on the MY or the exact model. It has the 1962-63 V-I-C-T-O-R script on the front wing. It has the 1964 indicator light (the chrome thing above the bumper). It has VX 4/90 hubcaps, but not the different colour on the side which is a distinctive feature of the VX 4/90. http://vauxpedianet.uk2sitebuilder.com/vauxhall-fb---victor-vx490 Perhaps a standard Victor with some extras? -- Last edit: 2023-04-10 12:21:51
johnfromstaffs ◊ 2023-04-10 14:28	There is no such thing as a Model Year for the Victor FB.
Lateef ◊ 2023-04-10 14:31	You sure about that? Here's a publicity photo dated Oct 61 explicitly calling it a 1962 Victor.
johnfromstaffs ◊ 2023-04-10 14:35	It ran until 1964, with a facelift in 1963. It was introduced on 14 September, 1960. (According to The Times) I’d have said ‘61. The car in the referenced photograph merely says its 1962, ie built that year. Ex Wikipedia: “FB Series Victor and VX4/90[edit] Vauxhall Victor FB Vauxhall VX4/90 FB Vauxhall Victor 1.jpg Overview Also called Envoy[10] Production 1961–64 328,640 produced.[3] Assembly Luton, United Kingdom[11] Australia[11] Belgium[11] Denmark[11] Portugal[11] Trinidad[11] New Zealand[11] South Africa[11] Body and chassis Body style 4-door saloon 5-door estate car Powertrain Engine 1.5 or 1.6 L Straight-4 ohv Transmission 4-speed manual Dimensions Wheelbase 100 in (2,540 mm)[6] Length 173 in (4,394 mm)[12] Width 64 in (1,626 mm)[12] Height 58 in (1,500 mm)[12] The more cleanly styled FB announced 14 September 1960[13] ran until 1964 with a substantial improvement regarding rust protection.” -- Last edit: 2023-04-10 14:54:58
johnfromstaffs ◊ 2023-04-10 14:53	The British manufacturers do not generally use “Model Year” since the cars tend to be in production for longer than one year.
johnfromstaffs ◊ 2023-04-10 14:59	If it’s this one - /vehicle.php?id=1776688 - it seems to be ‘63/4.. -- Last edit: 2023-04-10 15:00:22
Lateef ◊ 2023-04-10 15:55	johnfromstaffs wrote The car in the referenced photograph merely says its 1962, ie built that year. Read again, it says "Issued October, 1961" in the bottom right corner. The PB was announced (not introduced) in September 1960, and did not go on sale until October 1961. The Victor F was Vauxhall's offering through most of the 1961 model year, if you believe in what the advertisements say. I know Blighty "generally doesn't use model years", but there are exceptions. Another example, dated October 1957, talking about the "1958 Victors" and this was printed in 1959. johnfromstaffs wrote If it’s this one - /vehicle.php?id=1776688 - it seems to be ‘63/4.. Linked car has a white roof, subject car does not.
johnfromstaffs ◊ 2023-04-10 16:14	The photograph does not use the term “Model Year”, and, in any case, the car ran on well into 1963. I shall continue to argue against the use of the term “Model Year” for British cars for as long as I shall continue to refer to engine covers as bonnets where appropriate.
Lateef ◊ 2023-04-10 16:25	I suppose you need things "black on white" as we say in Norwegian, rather than putting two and two together yourself. And that's fine. I'm just letting you know that Vauxhall, as a subject of GM, tended to push years ahead of when their cars were actually launched, exactly like model year system of the USA. So I'm not going to argue this with you any further, but given that Vauxhall meant for us to regard these cars as next year's models, I suggest we stick to that, as we have been doing on this site for years.
johnfromstaffs ◊ 2023-04-10 16:27	So we refer to 1964 FB Victors as 1962 Facelift from now on then?
Lateef ◊ 2023-04-10 16:30	Eh?
johnfromstaffs ◊ 2023-04-10 16:35	If a car announced in 1960, and introduced in 1961 has to be called 1962, then the same car, still in production in 1964, but with an 86cc bigger engine, and some aluminium trim changes, can still logically be referred to as a 1962 “Model Year” facelift. Twisted logic, but what less can you expect?
Lateef ◊ 2023-04-10 16:42	The facelift was in September 1963, and is commonly referred to as the 1964 model. To me, it's all simple math, really - if a car is updated late in the calendar year, you automatically approximate it into the next year.
johnfromstaffs ◊ 2023-04-10 17:03	But not if it takes the road in the earlier year, if you work by dating the plate, it looks silly. Incidentally Jon Pressnell, in his Morris book, which I have just been using for the detail in the Morris Ten-Four, to date it, uses the term “Model Year” in reference to the grille stoneguard. I don’t agree with him, either!
Sunbar ◊ 2023-04-10 18:30	It is a Victor HB facelift, the earlier 'Victor' script on the wing is I believe only a reflection in the side panel. It appears too be too long and close to the door shut-line. 1964 Vauxhall Victor, and the DeLuxe with black hubcaps?
Corkeyandpals ◊ 2023-04-10 19:52	Couple more shots if they're helpful
dsl ◊ 2023-04-10 21:52	^ Yes - confirms facelift grille.
zodiac ◊ 2023-04-11 13:00	johnfromstaffs wrote The British manufacturers do not generally use “Model Year” since the cars tend to be in production for longer than one year. As far as I understand, the development of such a advanced technical thing as a car is an ongoing process. But the changes cannot take place at any time as that takes time. Because of that the manufacturers usually gather the necessary changes and do all of them when there is time. And the only time that is possible is during the industrial holiday in the middle of summer. Thus the manufacturing year must run between roughly August one year to roughly June the following year. Hence the term "Model Year". I don't know in detail about all British manufacturers, but I do know some about Ford. For the Mk2 Consul/Zephyr Zodiac thus applies: - Introduced in February 1956. - Rear panels (beneath the boot lid) strengthened after four months of production, effectively during the summer vacation. Thus "MY" 1957 with different rear panel. - From October 1957 (MY 1958) the Zephyr got a one piece grille, and Consul de luxe was introduced, several changes on all cars. - From February 1959 (MY 1959) the roof was lowered slightly and loads of shiny bits were added. - From October 1960 (MY 1961) disc brakes was available. - From May 1961 disc brakes was fitted as standard on the Zephyr/Zodiac while the Consul was renamed as 'Consul 375'. Volvo for a while thought Model Year was inappropriate and it was instead called like 1962/63. I don't know between what years that was valid, but I do know 1962/63 exists. In at least Europe the term Model Year is now no longer available as (I believe) the EU from about the year 2000 decided all cars was to be sold as when they were made. -- Last edit: 2023-04-11 13:08:17
johnfromstaffs ◊ 2023-04-11 14:34	Try looking at the introduction of changes for R-R and Bentley, and the Morris Minor. As I said on 23 March: - 1) It depends upon which of the coachbuilt variants it could be, I will look in the books. 2) Forget this silly “model year” business. The British motor industry didn’t do it, especially at the luxury end. Design changes were incorporated as they became available, and in some cases the same model ran for 5 or 6 years. Take the Bentley Mk VI, which remained as the same model from 1946 to 1952. When a more mass produced car had a major change the production of the old model usually stopped before the summer shutdown, (first 2 weeks of August usually) to permit necessary changes to the track and the jigs and tooling. Production then resumed and the new car would be presented to the public at the Motor Show in October, normally timed to match half term school holidays. Cars would be on sale then, or before. So a 1953 car might be identical in basic design with that vehicle sold in ‘54, ‘55 and ‘56. (Morris Minor Series 2, the only changes were of details), British cars tend to be dated by their date of registration, shown in the vehicle’s log book. -- Last edit: 2023-04-11 14:42:48
zodiac ◊ 2023-04-13 09:56	@john: You're right, of course. Because in reality only some U.S. manufacturers used Model Years. However, I don't entirely agree with you to only use the year of introduction as changes do appear during production. And those should, at least in my opinion, indicate when it was made. After that it's a mater of vocabulary. I've used the term "Model Year" because I don't know what else to use. Do you have a suggestion? One example: The Mercedes at home is a 1967 250 SE [w 108], made somewhere in March, I believe. The [W 108] was introduced at the 1965 Frankfurt exhibition, at the autumn of 1965, but it took some time to reach the dealers. That means only preproduction ones was made in 1965. At first glance it's not at all obvious the one at home was made in 1967, because one has to dig fairly deep to see those changes. The ones made in MY 1966 had very steep oil consumption so the ones made from 1967 had completely overhauled engines with lots of the oily bits changed, but very little visible from the outside. The only thing I know of that is visible is that the metal side vents on the corners of the facia was replaced with bigger ones in plastic where the air could be directed. If I saw one, here on imcdb, fitted with those air vents I'd say it's of MY 1967. What would you say? (I'm not born in the U.K. so I have a somewhat limited knowledge in the English language. Because of that I need some help sometimes. Everything is not all that easy as I believe many words have a 'literary meaning', but can also be used more freely with a 'transferred meaning'. ) -- Last edit: 2023-04-13 10:37:40
johnfromstaffs ◊ 2023-04-13 12:37	Firstly, let me assure you that you write far better English than many whose native language it is. Secondly, I shall have a little think and respond to your question.
johnfromstaffs ◊ 2023-04-13 14:16	My view of your 250SE is quite simple. It’s 1967. If that is the year it left the factory, that’s all anyone needs to know. There is then no need to add any further definition to the year. When the British car registration suffix letter change date was made August 1st instead of January 1st, auctioneers began to use the terminology as follows: Cars registered between Jan 1st and July 31st were referred to as 19xx “in the year”. Cars registered between August 1st and December 31st were referred to as 19xx “on the * plate”, where * represented the appropriate letter, so a 1969 car would be “1969 in the year” (G Registration) or “1969 on the H plate” if registered after August 1st. Don’t even think about the new system! British domiciled cars generally carry the same number plates from birth to death, they are not “license plates” as they are not involved in annual licensing. As you see from entries here, you can date most British registered cars from their number plate. I would suggest that the term “Model Year” may have stemmed from USA License Plates that changed every year, and so did not give a clue as to the cars’ year of construction. Customers needed something upon which to pin down when a car was built, and “Model Year” may have performed that function. I cannot begin to imagine the differing systems that may have been in use by each independent state of the USA, it must have been epic. -- Last edit: 2023-04-13 14:37:13

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1964 Vauxhall Victor [FB]

1964 Vauxhall Victor [FB] in Last Night in Soho, Movie, 2021

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